This Past Weekend w/ Theo Von
EPISODE #603: Mariana van Zeller
Show Notes
The full episode can be found here: https://youtu.be/6J4U3R5dRik
Summary
In this captivating episode, Theo Von is joined by Emmy-winning journalist Mariana van Zeller to discuss her groundbreaking work on her National Geographic show, "Trafficked." Recognized for its deep dives into the world's most dangerous black markets, the show has earned numerous accolades for its fearless approach to humanizing the individuals within these hidden economies.
Mariana explains her methodology for gaining the trust of people who live in the shadows, highlighting the motivations that drive them to speak—whether it's ego, a sense of impunity in corrupt regions, or simply a deep-seated desire to be understood without judgment. She reveals the shocking reality that these criminals often look like "your neighbor" and that the "war on drugs" has been a "massive failure," with most narcotics entering the U.S. through official ports of entry, not across open borders.
Throughout their conversation, they touch upon a range of Mariana's investigations, including:
- **Cartel Operations:** Her extensive reporting from Sinaloa, Mexico, and how American-born and raised individuals are often the masterminds behind logistics within the U.S.
- **Assassinations:** Terrifying encounters with hitmen in Los Angeles and South Africa, exploring the complex psychology behind their actions.
- **The Hidden Third:** The staggering scale of the global black and gray markets, which together constitute 38% of the world's economy.
- **Human Trafficking:** The heartbreaking reality of bride trafficking in Vietnam, fueled by China's gender imbalance from the one-child policy.
- **Rehab Scams:** The exploitation of vulnerable communities, particularly Native Americans, through fraudulent Medicaid billing in states like Arizona and California.
- **Ghost Guns & Militias:** The rise of untraceable firearms and the unsettling growth of unregulated militias at the U.S. border.
Mariana also shares her personal insights on resilience, attributing her ability to handle such intense topics to her curiosity, supportive upbringing, and a knack for compartmentalizing. She concludes by announcing her new podcast, "The Hidden Third," which will offer an even deeper look into these untold stories. The new season of "Trafficked" airs on National Geographic every Saturday at 9:00 p.m. and is available on Hulu.
Briefing: The Underworld Unveiled
Executive Summary:
Mariana van Zeller, an Emmy-winning journalist for National Geographic, specializes in investigative reporting on global black markets, including cartels, scammers, extremist groups, and human trafficking. Her work on the show "Trafficked" aims to expose the hidden corners of the world by getting unwilling individuals to speak. Key themes emerging from her experiences include the pervasive and growing nature of the global black market economy, the complex motivations of those involved (often driven by circumstance rather than inherent malice), the broken systems that enable these illicit activities, and the critical role of empathetic journalism in understanding and exposing these issues. Van Zeller emphasizes the importance of human connection, trust-building, and a non-judgmental approach in her dangerous work, highlighting that the "underworld" often operates closer to home than many realize.
Key Themes and Most Important Ideas/Facts:
The Pervasive and Growing Global Black Market Economy:
- Scale: Van Zeller highlights the astonishing scale of the black and gray market economy, stating that "38% of our global economy are these gray and black markets. It's what economists call the hidden third."
- Monetary Value: The drug trade alone is estimated at "$600$ to $800$ billion dollars," surpassing the GDP of many countries combined.
- Accessibility: These illicit activities are not confined to "dark tunnels" or remote areas; they happen "in broad daylight in like open lit warehouses and you know the neighbor's house in the backyard."
- Growth: The industry of scams is "growing every single year," with "$12.5$ billion dollars scammed from Americans last year alone."
Motivations and Humanity in the Underworld:
- Circumstance over Malice: Van Zeller strongly believes that the "vast majority of the people that I spend time with... are people that are born out of the circumstances that they're born in."
- Desire to Be Understood: This is a crucial factor in convincing people to talk. Her approach is "I'm not here to judge you I'm here because I really truly want to understand why you do what you do."
- Aspiration and Hope: She shares the story of a 16-year-old cocaine trafficker who was saving money to "one day become a dentist" to "make people smile."
Broken Systems and Government Accountability:
- The War on Drugs' Failure: Van Zeller asserts, "The war on drugs has been a massive failure." Despite billions spent, "1 million people have died from the opiate crisis" since 2000.
- Exploitation of Loopholes: Many illicit activities, like rehab scams, thrive by "exploiting broken systems." She criticizes the government for allowing these systems to be exploited.
- Immigration as a Political Tool: Van Zeller and Theo believe the ongoing immigration crisis is deliberately left "open and broken on purpose" by the government to "create a lot almost cuz then it inspires people who believe in America."
The Ethics and Methodology of Investigative Journalism:
- Building Trust: The "hardest part" of her job is convincing people to talk, which can take "months sometimes even years." A key tactic is to show up "never with security," which she sees as "completely counterproductive."
- Human Connection and Empathy: Van Zeller's primary tool is establishing a "human connection" by emphasizing: "I'm not here to judge you."
- Personal Risk: Her work involves significant personal risk, including interviewing dangerous individuals like assassins (one of whom pointed a gun at her and her team).
- Compartmentalization: Van Zeller describes her ability to "compartmentalize things" as crucial for coping with the traumatic experiences she witnesses.
Briefing: The Underworld Unveiled
Executive Summary:
Mariana van Zeller, an Emmy-winning journalist for National Geographic, specializes in investigative reporting on global black markets, including cartels, scammers, extremist groups, and human trafficking. Her work on the show "Trafficked" aims to expose the hidden corners of the world by getting unwilling individuals to speak. Key themes emerging from her experiences include the pervasive and growing nature of the global black market economy, the complex motivations of those involved (often driven by circumstance rather than inherent malice), the broken systems that enable these illicit activities, and the critical role of empathetic journalism in understanding and exposing these issues. Van Zeller emphasizes the importance of human connection, trust-building, and a non-judgmental approach in her dangerous work, highlighting that the "underworld" often operates closer to home than many realize.
Key Themes and Most Important Ideas/Facts:
The Pervasive and Growing Global Black Market Economy:
- Scale: Van Zeller highlights the astonishing scale of the black and gray market economy, stating that "38% of our global economy are these gray and black markets. It's what economists call the hidden third."
- Monetary Value: The drug trade alone is estimated at "$600$ to $800$ billion dollars," surpassing the GDP of many countries combined.
- Accessibility: These illicit activities are not confined to "dark tunnels" or remote areas; they happen "in broad daylight in like open lit warehouses and you know the neighbor's house in the backyard."
- Growth: The industry of scams is "growing every single year," with "$12.5$ billion dollars scammed from Americans last year alone."
Motivations and Humanity in the Underworld:
- Circumstance over Malice: Van Zeller strongly believes that the "vast majority of the people that I spend time with... are people that are born out of the circumstances that they're born in."
- Desire to Be Understood: This is a crucial factor in convincing people to talk. Her approach is "I'm not here to judge you I'm here because I really truly want to understand why you do what you do."
- Aspiration and Hope: She shares the story of a 16-year-old cocaine trafficker who was saving money to "one day become a dentist" to "make people smile."
Broken Systems and Government Accountability:
- The War on Drugs' Failure: Van Zeller asserts, "The war on drugs has been a massive failure." Despite billions spent, "1 million people have died from the opiate crisis" since 2000.
- Exploitation of Loopholes: Many illicit activities, like rehab scams, thrive by "exploiting broken systems." She criticizes the government for allowing these systems to be exploited.
- Immigration as a Political Tool: Van Zeller and Theo believe the ongoing immigration crisis is deliberately left "open and broken on purpose" by the government to "create a lot almost cuz then it inspires people who believe in America."
The Ethics and Methodology of Investigative Journalism:
- Building Trust: The "hardest part" of her job is convincing people to talk, which can take "months sometimes even years." A key tactic is to show up "never with security," which she sees as "completely counterproductive."
- Human Connection and Empathy: Van Zeller's primary tool is establishing a "human connection" by emphasizing: "I'm not here to judge you."
- Personal Risk: Her work involves significant personal risk, including interviewing dangerous individuals like assassins (one of whom pointed a gun at her and her team).
- Compartmentalization: Van Zeller describes her ability to "compartmentalize things" as crucial for coping with the traumatic experiences she witnesses.
Episode Segments
Here is a detailed breakdown of the episode, organized by topic with timestamps, titles, summaries, and lists of mentioned people and places.
Overarching Themes:
- The "Hidden Third" and Global Illicit Economies
- Systemic Failure and Accountability
- Humanity Behind Crime
- The Power of Storytelling and Awareness
- The Dangers and Ethics of Investigative Journalism
- Political Exploitation of Societal Issues
0:00 - 2:20 | Introduction, "Trafficked" and Emmy Recognition
Theo Von introduces Mariana van Zeller as an Emmy award-winning journalist for National Geographic, known for investigative reporting on dangerous black markets. Van Zeller discusses her nine Emmy wins for "Trafficked," emphasizing the challenge of getting people to open up about their "crazy underworld."
2:20 - 5:20 | Cartels in the USA: Violence, Corruption & Distribution
Van Zeller previews topics for the new season, focusing on "Cartel USA," revealing the widespread presence of cartels in U.S. small towns. She highlights corruption as a major tool and states the "war on drugs" is a "massive failure." She notes that many cartel operators are American-born and that most drugs enter the U.S. through "official ports of entry."
5:20 - 7:00 | Building Trust: Ego, Impunity, and the Desire to be Understood
Van Zeller explains her method for convincing subjects to speak: capitalizing on their ego, impunity (in corrupt regions), and a universal human desire to be understood. She emphasizes her non-judgmental approach and stresses that her team never travels with security, as it would be "completely counterproductive."
7:00 - 13:00 | Investigating Assassins: American & South African Stories
She describes investigating assassins in LA and South Africa. The American hitman was volatile and threatened her team. In contrast, a two-hour interview with a South African assassin became a "therapy session," as he had never before been able to process his actions or tell his story, leading to a moment of realization.
13:00 - 14:00 | The Human Condition: Circumstance, Pimps & Status
Van Zeller discusses how circumstances determine life paths, citing an LA pimp who grew up viewing pimps as "heroes" in his impoverished neighborhood due to their perceived status.
15:00 - 18:00 | Surveillance & Reporting Challenges in Vietnam
Van Zeller recounts her experience in Vietnam reporting on bride trafficking, where her team faced government surveillance, including being assigned a minder who monitored all interviews and having their phones and rental vans tapped.
18:00 - 23:50 | The Horrors of Bride Trafficking
Van Zeller explains the prevalence of bride trafficking in Vietnam, fueled by China's former one-child policy and a gender imbalance. Victims face harrowing conditions, including being locked up, raped, and having their children taken away. Undercover journalists provided footage of catalogs of girls for sale in brothels.
23:50 - 25:50 | The "Hidden Third" & Systemic Failures
Van Zeller reveals that 38% of the global economy consists of "gray and black markets," known as "the hidden third." She explains that her work aims to change "broken systems."
25:50 - 29:00 | Cocaine & Fentanyl Production: From Jungle to Lab
She recounts witnessing cocaine production in Peru and being in enclosed fentanyl labs in Sinaloa, Mexico. She shares a memorable story of a 16-year-old cocaine trafficker who was saving money to "become a dentist" to "make people smile," which solidified the show's message that "where and when you're born determines whether you get lifted or crushed by it."
30:40 - 35:00 | Continued Rationale & Personal Resilience: The Death Train
Van Zeller explains that she maintains contact with many of her subjects. She recounts her early career covering dangerous topics like the "Death Train" in Mexico and attributes her resilience to her deep curiosity, love for travel, supportive parents, and her ability to compartmentalize intense experiences.
35:00 - 40:00 | The Scam of Rehab Facilities & Medicaid Fraud
Van Zeller investigated rehab scams in Arizona and California that exploit vulnerable Native Americans. She describes how clinics provide "shit treatment" while billing insurance "insane amounts of money." She expresses anger at the government for allowing these "broken systems" to be exploited.
40:00 - 44:00 | New Podcast, Global Black Market & Ghost Guns
Van Zeller announces her upcoming podcast, "The Hidden Third," and discusses "ghost guns"—untraceable firearms assembled from over-the-counter or 3D-printed parts. She shares a story of a gang member who purchased a ghost gun and later used it to shoot a woman.
44:00 - 46:30 | Militias in the USA: Border Patrol & Ideologies
Van Zeller observes a growth of militias in the U.S. and filmed with "Patriots for America," a right-wing group patrolling the border. She clarifies that while a "well-regulated militia" is constitutional, unregulated militias are not legal, and she personally disagrees with their methods.
46:30 - 49:30 | Immigration: A Broken System & Impending Surveillance State
Both Theo Von and Van Zeller believe the U.S. government intentionally keeps the immigration system "open and broken" to create division and gain votes. Theo suggests this might also be connected to an impending surveillance state.
49:30 - 52:00 | Government Inaction, Political Games & Call for Engagement
The discussion underscores government inaction, contrasting the response to the opioid crisis with the post-9/11 response. Van Zeller calls for greater civic engagement through voting to effect change. The segment concludes with details about her new podcast and the current season of "Trafficked."
People & Places Mentioned
People:
- Mariana van Zeller
- Theo Von
- El Gringo
- Dennis Artillis
- Colin Thompson
- Henry
- Sam Hall
- Al Gore
- Ezra Cooperstein
- Darren (Mariana's husband)
- Germa (Guatemalan kid)
- Maria (Guatemalan woman)
- Sam Altman
- Ro Khanna
- Nick
- Ryan
- Sean
- Bizzle
- Voldemort
- Netanyahu
Places:
- National Geographic
- Sinaloa, Mexico
- Georgia (State, USA)
- LA (Los Angeles), California, USA
- South Africa
- Peru
- Colombia
- VRAEM Valley, Peru
- China
- Vietnam
- Sa Pa, Vietnam
- Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
- Arizona, USA
- California, USA
- Alaska, USA
- Oklahoma, USA
- Ramada Inn
- Tempe, Arizona, USA
- London, UK
- Chicago, USA
- Qatar
- Europe
- Current TV (media company)
- San Francisco, California, USA
- Sri Lanka
- Lebanon
- Mexico
- Tapachula, Mexico
- Guatemala
- Darien Gap
- Silicon Valley, California, USA
- Hulu
- Delta Airlines
- DSW shoes
- Newfound Hope (Rehab facility)